James Donohoe’s Research Focus
I have included this information on the web site as it is very thought provoking and I hope you will discuss it and perhaps either help James with his research or encourage him as he seeks the truth about Nathaniel and Olivia.
Thank you so very much for the work you put into your web site. I receive a lot more inquiries from Lucas descendants because of it but the information base has skyrocketed. I think that we will identify Nathaniel's family in 2002 and most probably Olivia's. Elizabeth Larking has held the view that both were of non-conformist religions. I think that she is right, as usual. The Will of John Lucass refers to the "Wesley Clerk". This points to the Methodists for Nathaniel. The Methodists at the time were of the Church of England but followed the movement for reform in that religion led my John Wesley. They broke away quite some time after that period.
I had believed that Olivia was a Catholic originally but changed her religion in 1783 along with the rest of the aristocrat Gascoignes, as recorded in the Catholic History of England. That may still be so. However, thanks to all the prompts I have recently received I have now found the history of the family from whom I was adamant Olivia was connected. I may still be right but the clues have changed. The fault lay in the fact that I had picked up the family of a Thomas Gascoigne in Wentworth Castle baptisms. This family did not live in Wentworth Castle at all. They lived nearby in Parlington Hall. This man was Sir Thomas Gascoigne, Baron Lasingcroft Parlington. I had also believed that they were her family because there were several descendants named Olive, Olivia and Oliver. It transpired that the heir was a stepdaughter, not a daughter, and that this Miss "Gascoigne" married a Mr. Silver Oliver and later Mr. Oliver adopted the name Silver Oliver Gascoigne. Then the children and grandchildren followed with Olive etc. However, I still believe that our Olivia's grandfather was Sir John Gascoigne, Sir Thomas’ Uncle, who lived in Hanley Castle (a town) near Severn Stoke.
I had previously been passed information that the title of Earl of Errol was offered to Anne' descendant (Anne being the eldest was Nathaniel and Olivia's heir or carrier of any entitlements) by Lord Llanover, Sir Benjamin Hall (Big Ben). The title links through Lord Fitzwilliam, illegitimate son of Prince William (later King William IV), whose wife was the daughter of the Duke of Argyle (Campbell’s) and Margaret Gascoigne. Surprise, surprise. Lord Fitzwilliam lived in ... Wentworth Castle. His brother migrated to Australia and lived near John Lucas for a while before moving to Milton on the south coast where he died. Most of Lord Fitzwilliam's staff from Wentworth Castle are buried in the same tiny graveyard at Gunning, New South Wales Australia, where John Lucas is buried. The staff's descendants have their own family history association and they most certainly do know of us. Sir Benjamin's grandfather was born in .. Hanley Castle near Severn Stoke.
The latest information I have is that Anne's descendants received a legacy from the estate of a lady who transpired to be Sir Benjamin's wife. Interesting! We have located the papers of the Gascoignes mentioned and the Mormons have a copy of them on microfilm, including family trees. I proposed to visit the Mormons HQ in Sydney, which is near my home and view the papers. We are also trying to locate the estate papers. We may need a Solicitor in England for that research.
So far no one has been able to locate any information about Olivia before her arrest. Many of us have tried without success. All conclusions so far have been formed on speculation arising from the merger of coincidental data.
We have several myths backed up by some facts:
The name Bradford is in the family... named carried on here.
A connection with the Earls of Stratford, the Wentworth’s ... name carried on here.
Linked to the Vernon’s of Audley ... name carried on here.
Linked to the Campbell’s, Dukes of Argyle and Robert Campbell of Campbell’s Cove ... recorded by great granddaughter born in 1846.
My current research is focused on two places in the USA, "Stratford", Danville, Virginia (South Virginia) and "Stratford" Accomack, Virginia, near entrance to Chesapeake Bay (towards New York).
My focus begins with General of the Confederacy, Robert E. Lee and works backwards. Robert E. Lee was born in 1807 in "Straford" Danville. Stratford is a Wentworth title.
Is Robert E. Lee linked to the Gascoignes. Possibly! William Eustace from near "Stratford", Accomack married Anna Lee there in 1711. Their daughter, Sarah born in 1722 married Thomas Gascoyne (born Northumberland County Virginia) son of Thomas Gascoigne and Mary Conway, on 14.7.1744. Accomack Virginia is in the same area. Sarah died in about 1764. Thomas married again to Ann Kerr in 1765 and to Sarah Lee in 1770. This may be the family that lived (i.e., resided not owned) in Wentworth Castle, Yorkshire, in the 1760's.
In Accomack there was a Thomas Gascoigne born in 1690, died 1760 and his wife Mary Snead, who married there in 1717.
Also in Accomack was a Thomas Gascoyne who married Sarah Bradford in Danville (Robert E. Lee's birthplace) in 1747. Sarah had a sister named Olive.
They had a son, William Bradford Gascoigne, who was born in Accomack. William married Sarah Harman, born Little Malvern, near Severn Stoke, Worcestershire on 27.9.1726.
William's sister Mary married Colin Campbell near Accomack on 2.8.1761.
It is interesting to note that a Thomas Rowley married a Mary Bradford in Hallow, Worcestershire on 23.10.1743.
Finally. the Gascoigne Family History and Pedigrees are held in Leeds City Library. The goods news is that the Mormons have copied them and they are available on microfiche in their local family history centre. The reels may have to be ordered in.
I hope that this focus will lead to something positive. I have written this up in the hope that people will check me out. This information in on the Internet, and in the IGI - USA and England.
Re My research up-date. Some years ago I learned of the offer to Anne's descendants of the title "Earl of Errol" by Lord Llandover, Sir Benjamin Hall, in about 1854. This line of Anne's was the eldest of the eldest of the eldest from Olivia. This research was interesting but gave no firm leads so far. There was a Grace Gascoigne in the late Earl of Errol's ancestry but what that proves is limited.
Further information from the same source advised that the same descendant family actually received a bequest from the "Waddington Estate". This estate was traced to Augusta Waddington. Ausgusta Wadddington, it transpired, was Lady Benjamin Hall.
This suggested to me that there was a Waddington Link to Gascoigne. I have found that a John Gaskin married a Mary Warrington in nearby Staffordshie (Alstonfield Parish) on 19.11.1711. This couple would have been old enough to have been Olivia's grandparents and Mary's name might well have been Waddington, rather than Warrington. Misspellings in names in Parish Registers, was quite common.
I have also checked out Parishes nearby Severn Stoke for sisters or brothers of Olivia. Bingo!. Next door to Severn Stoke (northward) is the parish of Kempsey. Ann Gaskin married Samuel Phillips on 31.3.1792. I bet this is Olivia's sister. A Mormon, Mr. Edward Phillips, asserts descendancy and I am trying to locate Mr. Phillips who may have information of Ann's parents. A son John Samuel Phillips was christened in Temple, London on 21.4.1799.
Temple, incidentally was the home of Penelope Grant, known here as Mrs. Penelope Lucas, nanny to John Macarthur's children. Coincidentally, Sir Benjamin Hall's grandmother's name was Elizabeth Grant from near Temple, London (christened at St. Olave Hart Street on 20.8.1740).
We also have a written history of the family, which said that Robert Campbell, the Merchant arrested with William Bligh, was a cousin. This has not been firmly proven. However, there were two Robert Campbell's, father and son. I have always held out the option that the cousin mentioned was Robert Campbell junior. That being the case then his mother is the link. Robert's mother was Sophia Palmer, daughter of first fleeter, John Palmer. Sir Benjamin Hall's great grandmother was Margaret Palmer, christened at " The Rock" near Severn Stoke, Worcester, in 1717. Interesting!
It might also be of interest to researchers that the Lindemann (wine) and Holden (motor car) family are linked to us (through my ancestry). Dr. Lindemann's daughter married James Holden who founded the company as a coachbuilder. James Holden's mother, Olivia Hodges was christened in Shrawley near Worcester on 31.7.1811. Her sister Catherine Hodges was christened in Dodderhill near Hanbury Hall, Droitwych, former home of Vernon- Wentworth and the Trench Gascoignes, on 23.12.1817. Catherine's daughter, Mrs. Caroline King, was the witness at the wedding of Nathaniel and Olivia's great-grandson, John Andrew Goodin. Catherine's granddaughter, Mrs. Catherine Faulkner, is buried with John and his wife in Rookwood Cemetery. Interesting!
Also, Augusta Waddington's son was Benjamin Hanbury Hall. Note, Hanbury.
I received an E-mail from Beverley Lucas-Brown who is living and working in England.
Beverley wrote.
I was looking through James Donohoe’s writings on Nathaniel and Olivia and I noticed the names of John Palmer and Christopher Palmer, Palmers ships etc. The company I have just started work for is an old family business called Palmers Brewery and the Chairman is John Palmer (being a family name). Is anyone able to give me more information about the Palmers in Australia – would be a strange coincidence if there is another connection with the two families.
I sent this E-mail on to James Donohoe and this was his reply.
John (1760-1822) and Christopher Palmer (1767 – 1821) were the sons of John Palmer, a shipwright, and Sarah Taylor of Portsmouth. They both arrived on the “Sirius” as crew in the First Fleet. Christopher was a servant and later an able seaman. John was the purser. Christopher went back to sea afterwards, serving mainly as a Purser. He intermittently visited Australia later although he died in Sydney in 1821. Christopher had a casual girlfriend, Catherine Rourke (convict per “Sugar Cane”).
John Palmer married an American Loyalist, Susannah Stilwell, who migrated to Australia on the “Porpise”. Their daughter, Sophia, married the colonial merchant Robert Campbell. It is their son Robert Campbell junior who may be the cousin referenced in my family’s personal records. If so, then the connection could be through the Palmers.
It is interesting to note that there is a Palmers Brewery. I was not aware of this before. The Gascoigne family owned England’s biggest breweries. In Olivia’s time they had a brewery in East Ham which is in the vicinity of Kingston on Thames, not far from Thames Ditton (two minutes by car). James squire, a brewer came from there and I have often suspected that he learnt the skill of brewing from the Gascoigne family.
Squire, Palmer and Campbell supported Bligh in the Rum Rebellion. Olivia only sailed on ships owned by Palmer and Campbell, viz., “Greyhound” (same name as HMS “Greyhound”., Captain John Gascoigne), “John Palmer” and “Racehorse” (Gascoignes founded the English horseracing industry in Doncaster, Yorkshire).
Recently I received this e-mail fro James and thought it should be posted to the Web Site.
Dear June,
As you can appreciate, I have not been forthcoming with much in the way of family research and developments lately. A couple of things have happened though.
1. A Doctorate student at the ANU Canberra is researching James Squire. I passed to him some information on Nathaniel because there are several links between Nathaniel and James Squire, especially the relationship with Edwin Tooth, the founder of Tooth's brewery. We will have to wait until he completes his thesis before we bother him again. I will be inviting him to publish his work as I am sure that James Squire's descendants will be interested in buying a copy as no doubt will some of Nathaniel Lucas' descendants also.
2. We have a document in the Goodin Line where Olivia and Nathaniel's great grand daughter (mother Matha Lucas (daughter of William) lived with Olivia), Mary Jane Goodin (Mrs. Lucas), mentioned that her father (William Goodin) had an "Uncle Andrew". William's father, first fleeter, Edward Goodin, certainly did have a brother named Andrew. The births of both Edward and Andrew were recorded the London Lying in Hospital to the same parents, Edward Goodin and Mary Savage (Servige). Some researchers have believed that first fleeter, Andrew Goodwin, alias Goodin, was this person. They were of the same age. However, Mary Jane, who was my great grandfather's sister, said that Uncle Andrew was a sea Captain. The first fleeter was a farmer.
Mary Jane's father once owned a block of land in Toongabbie jointly with "Andrew Goodin" (NSW Land Titles Office). I have merely assumed all along that this partner was Edward Goodin's brother. We though might be looking at two different persons. I am looking at the partner being Andrew Gascoigne alias Goodin. I have found an Andrew Goodin and an Andrew Gascoigne fitting the same description and of the same abode here., a ferry captain on the Hawkesbury. If this man was Mary Jane's uncle than he may very well be Olivia's brother or cousin.
Below is the extract from my "Paracensus of Australia 1788-1828" referring to this man and his family. The codes are bibliographical references. Local libraries have the "Paracensus"
GASCOIGNE/GASKIN/GASCON/GASKINS/GOODIN Henry/Thomas/Andrew+ 1766 William & Ann 1790
A11A12A13A14A15A19A21A26A27A45A99
GASCOIGNE/GASKIN/EVANS* Margaret 1765 Experiment A11A12A13A14A19A21A26A27A99
GASCOIGNE/GASKIN Ann~ 1812 NSW A13A14A21A26A27
A11 1828 Census
A12 Convict shipping indent
A13 1822 Muster
A141825 Muster
A15 1811 Muster
A19 1814 Muster
A21 Colonial Secretary's Records
A26 NSW State Library - Mitchell Library Indexes
A27 Sydney Gazetter
A45 1801 Muster
A99 NSW BDM registrations
Another Lucas family which is linked to this family recalls in its myths that a Mr. Gascoigne called upon Mrs. Smith, wife of the Rev. Father, Elijah Smith, first Anglican Priest in Australia, enquiring of a Nathaniel Lucas. This enquiry was made in about 1828 just after Rev. Smith's arrival. Mrs. Smith was the former Miss Martha Lucas, granddaughter of Lord John Lucas, one time Private Secretary to King George 111. A friendship developed and a descendant from related families (Evans) married into the Smith family .. and they later, into our family (my sister, Noelle).
Other family researchers might like to look into this clue themselves to draw their own conclusions. Views welcomed and indeed invited.
Regards
James Donohoe
Some further information was received which might help people undertaking further research. I have included both e-mails for your information.
Hi there,
I came across James's research and thought I would write due to there being a slight discrepancy about Robert Campbell. I am a descendant of John Palmer the purser on HMS Sirius. I have records and have discovered that the Robert Campbell you are speaking of is the husband of Sophia Palmer whom is the sister of John Palmer not his daughter, he has a daughter named Sophia but married Edward Charles Close. Also the Robert you referred to was born in 1804 which makes it impossible for him to have associations with William Bligh to which John Palmer 'Purser' was a witness 1809. So the Sophia you are referring to is the daughter of John Palmer the shipwright born 1727 not the purser John Palmer born 1760 and the Robert Campbell you want was born 1769, married to Sophia 1801 and died 1846.
I truly hope this is of assistance to you. If you have any questions please feel free to email ctd@iprimus.com.au
Kind regards,
Colleen Wright
Dear June,
Now I know why I was running around the bend trying to sort this identity out. It never occurred to me that there were two John Palmers involved, both with daughters named Sophia, who both coincidentally married a Robert Campbell, father and son.
That is a very rare situation indeed. This information may give us a better lead on Olivia. I had looked at the ancestry of John Palmer, the first fleeter for clues and run a blank. We now have a different John Palmer to look at.
Please pass on my sincere thanks to Coleen Wright for being so enlightening.
Sincerely,
James
